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Ruyangosaurus giganteus - forgotten giant # ??? by Paleo-King Ruyangosaurus giganteus - forgotten giant # ??? :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 65 38 Paluxysaurus jonesi hi-fi skeletals by Paleo-King Paluxysaurus jonesi hi-fi skeletals :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 55 7 Brachiosaur comparison by Paleo-King Brachiosaur comparison :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 72 27
Literature
List of Biggest Dinosaurs
The largest dinosaur in terms of mass and volume is probably some sort of titanosaur. As of now.....
Here's how the biggest titanosaurs rank out in first-last place:
1. Tie between Alamosaurus (referred Mexican fibula + Fowler & Sullivan's neck centrum), Puertasaurus (1 cervical, 1 dorsal, 2 unpublished caudals) and the "Chubut Monster" (majority of skeleton from at least six specimens). All of of these animals appear to top out around 120+ ft. long and probably 100 tons.
2. Tie between Argentinosaurus and the "MLP Monster" (briefly mentioned by GSP, 1988 with estimate measurements, and lost to history since). Both of these animals were probably pushing 110+ ft. long and 80-90 tons
3. Tie between Ruyangosaurus (cervical rib, anterior and posterior dorsals, additional unpublished dorsals, dorsal rib, upper femur, tibia), Notocolossus (dorsal and caudal vertebrae, foot, and limb elements) and "Argyrosaurus" sp. (the larger referred femur FMNH 13018)
:iconPaleo-King:Paleo-King
:iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 31 112
Supersaurus vivianae by Paleo-King Supersaurus vivianae :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 84 34 So you want to draw Huanghetitanids? by Paleo-King So you want to draw Huanghetitanids? :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 68 45
Literature
Our March - 'Die Paleo-Kompanie'
(The new anthem of the Paleo-Nazis - to be sung to the tune of "Die Braune Kompanie" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYYDffIKC3k  any time you get trolled by "awesomebros" or other living Godwin's Law exhibits)
I still am young on years of life,
I still am far from death;
But I have witnessed “awesomebros”
attempt to choke our breath.
And though my luck does raise me up,
I give first thanks to thee:
I pledge to you my loyalty, O Paleo Company!
I pledge to you my loyalty, O Paleo Company!
Already some have been ripped off
From our Paleo-Korps
The bells of victory, now clang,
my arm and brush, exhort!
I swear and I renew that Oath
that Paleo-King did sing -
“I pledge to you my loyalty, O Paleo Company!”
“I pledge to you my loyalty, O Paleo Company!”
So struggle forth like dinosaurs,
til Fraudsters' whining shall end;
Accuracy and copyrights,
with tooth and claw defend!
And Araucarias be strewn
Upon our victory!
Serve you, I shall, in loyalt
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Brachiosaur Death's Head by Paleo-King Brachiosaur Death's Head :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 25 14 Giraffatitan brancai UNCENSORED! by Paleo-King Giraffatitan brancai UNCENSORED! :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 108 45 Brachiosaurid skull comparison by Paleo-King Brachiosaurid skull comparison :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 82 14 Titanosaurs and other Somphospondyli by Paleo-King Titanosaurs and other Somphospondyli :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 45 35 The Drinker by Paleo-King The Drinker :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 60 22 Sonorasaurus thompsoni by Paleo-King Sonorasaurus thompsoni :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 38 13 Cedarosaurus weiskopfae by Paleo-King Cedarosaurus weiskopfae :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 60 40 British Brachiosaurs by Paleo-King British Brachiosaurs :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 122 16 Abydosaurus mcintoshi skeletal by Paleo-King Abydosaurus mcintoshi skeletal :iconpaleo-king:Paleo-King 98 42

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Activity


So, this morning, I woke up to some excellent news. PeerJ had accepted our* new manuscript to their journal, & it was formally published this morning.

*Whaddya mean "our"? Well, this manuscript was not just my own doing. This is a project started all the way back in late 2010/11 as an SVP abstract/presentation, and a few years back I re-visited it with :iconbricksmashtv:
Gunnar Bivens.

We've worked very hard though, since December, to get this pushed out finally this year. That means... technically we're published scientists now!

This paper is on the enigmatic Ruyangosaurus, a poorly known lognkosaurian (yes, that hypothesis is correct) from the mid-Cretaceous of China. And yes, it likely is China's biggest dinosaur, given that it would outmass "Mamenchisaurus" sinocanadorum substantially, and that the latter is apparently known only from "a couple of cervicals" since GSP's confession. The dataset we assembled references the data matrices from a number of recent papers including Gonzalez-Riga et. al., 2016 (the Notocolossus paper), and so far the characters for Ruyangosaurus put it firmly in lognkosauria. The previous assignations of this giant to "Andesauridae" or "non-titanosaur somphospondyli" were based on a very limited number of basal characters common to most titanosaurs and/or most titanosauriforms, but there was very little mention of the derived characters of Ruyangosaurus.

Here's a taste of the goodness: the second dorsal in glorious high-resolution-
Ruyangosaurus D2.jpg
Fig. 1.

The full citation, as well as the link, is below:
Sassani N, Bivens GT. (2017The Chinese colossus: an evaluation of the phylogeny of Ruyangosaurus giganteus and its implications for titanosaur evolutionPeerJ Preprints5:e2988v1 doi.org/10.7287/peerj.preprint…

We've already received comments, & any more are always welcome to help out!

**So why did I say technically? Well, this was published as a preprint, which means it's not formally peer reviewed yet. It is, however, a valid piece of the scientific literature and contains a literal mountain of data, & therefore valuable nonetheless.

deviantID

Paleo-King
Nima
Artist | Professional | Traditional Art
United States
Current Residence: A dinosaur museum/bone bed near you
deviantWEAR sizing preference: Somewhere between Otto Arco and Louis Cyr
Favourite style of art: that's rather self-evident...
Operating System: Anything but Vista!
Skin of choice: mammalian, watertight, preferably soft, hairless and well-insulated
Personal Quote: "It must be new or bust!"

I am a Paleo-Artist and Independent Paleontologist. I aim for both accuracy and elegance in my visual time-travel back to the Mesozoic, as is the case we observe in nature today. I have been featured in blogs, twitter, and even in a few very good books.

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" It should be obvious to all right-thinking people that this [Nima's Brachiosaur Parade] is the single greatest piece of artwork ever executed by anyone, anywhere, at any time in history." - Dr. Michael P. Taylor, PhD svpow.com/2009/11/24/more-out-…

"If I may say so, I feel Nima has cleaned up in the reconstruction category. (Love those voluminous bodies). " - David Maas blogevolved.blogspot.com/2009/…

"Just wanted to say this, you possess one (or perhaps the best) galleries of paleoart on DA." - Xenomorphia-Master66 comments.deviantart.com/20/139…

"Your fondness for sauropods is delightful, and your skills are formidable!" - Heatherbeast comments.deviantart.com/20/139…

"Only Nima Sassani and Thomas Holtz are allowed to do science" - Jiddu veterufreak.deviantart.com/

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All images are my own copyrights unless explicitly noted otherwise. If you are interested in commissioning work or using any of my images in a paper, book, presentation or website, drop me a line at Paleo_King@hotmail.com.

Website: www.sassani-dinoart.com/

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:iconfranoys:
Franoys Featured By Owner Edited May 17, 2017
Nima, the femur is not preserved completely in any Turiasaur so far, the photograph of the "bone" you are linking is only a cast with the vast majority of it based on nothing other than a guess, so it is not phylogenetically informative. In Turiasaurus, only the distal portion of the femur is preserved, the one that is lighter in color in Larramendi's restoration (Turiasaurus riodevensis ).  This is also adressed in it's description papers (Royo-Torres 2006) in which it is clearly stated that the Turiasaurus paratype only preserves a distal fragment from the left femur. Therefore the characters that you infered based on the length-width, the lateral bulge, the shaft or the femoral head as well as the proximal portion of the femur from it are not real.

The french monster femur illustration you based your earlier conclusions on is an edit from a wall mount in which the femur was represented unprepared and as it was found, so there is a very decent posibility of error there, (although it was of course not intentional) it is posible that the prepared and cleaned femur of the animal doesn't resemble Paluxysaurus that closely.

The team absolutely believes the french monster is a Turiasaur and they are reconstructing it as such, in fact they have traveled to Dinopolis which is where the remains of Turiasaurus are housed, 
petitcarnetpaleo.blogspot.com.…  they made a cast from Turiasaurus skull for the exhibit that will start in a few days, and a Spanish paleontologist that has worked with Turiasaurus remains since it was found is working with them (Rafael Royo Torres)petitcarnetpaleo.blogspot.com.… ,  I was planning on emailing him. Another point that you raised about the teeth looking brachiosaur doesn't support the Paluxysaurus based version more than a Turiasaurus based one, since the teeth of Turiasaurus look identical to those of the French monster and also the similarity between the teeth of all theese dinosaurs could be based on plesiomorphic characters, convergence or both.

And with all the respect, I think that accusing the team of conspiring due to political reasons and of altering the femur to be Turiasaur like (even when it's complete femur doesn't exist) are a bit out of place.
Reply
:iconpaleo-king:
Paleo-King Featured By Owner May 17, 2017  Professional Traditional Artist
There are photographs of Turiasaurus femurs complete at the dig site. The femur head may be a bit eroded but you can see where the head curved in medially to connect with the (no longer there) hip socket. i52.tinypic.com/30wugt1.jpg This bone was still not fully excavated in that picture, so I doubt any of it was fake! It looks that the femur is 95% complete or more, so I don't see how this is a "distal fragment" - or maybe this isn't Turiasaurus? Is it Galveosaurus? Losillasaurus? It's in a lot of news articles about Turiasaurus, and looks the same as their cast, so what do you think it is?

Also the casts that the Angeac team made of the French Monster are based on an incorrect assembly of the femur fragments. The wall mount actually shows the femur as it was in situ, without the fragments distorted or misplaced in any way. The dig photos show the same thing, there is inward canting of the femur head, a large lateral bulge, and yes there are cracks in the bone but no GAPS.

1.bp.blogspot.com/-hlyuuqVe2HU…

The way they laid the bones out on the table later on DOES have gaps. Artificial gaps on the medial side that did not exist in the bone as uncovered.

pbs.twimg.com/media/CL-eanQWIA…

The team artificially straightened the femur, perhaps in the belief that it's a turiasaur. It's not necessarily "conspiring" :D There is a lot of buzz around Turiasaurus in Spain and France, not so much about titanosauriforms because they're not a unique, newly described, and local family. They just don't attract the same kind of local enthusiasm. (Ampelosaurus? blah blah, Hypselosaurus blah blah blah, Lirainosaurus blah blah.... trick question, how many years did it take for a second paper on that one with some actually decent pictures!? It's much more complete than the French Monster, but still no museum exhibit...) There's a natural hype to Turiasaurs built into this whole situation, no conspiracy necessary. Turiasaurs have regional exclusivity and that novelty factor of a newly discovered family. But that still doesn't make it right to artificially straighten a femur when the fragments interlock together just fine in the original bent position and the distal condyles are screaming "Chubutisaurid" even with the erosion. Even in terms of femur shaft width and how that changes across its distal portion, the French Monster STILL looks nothing like a turiasaur. The incorrect standing cast they made of it doesn't look like Turiasaurus either, it just looks like a long-shafted gracile titanosauriform femur that's had the top end smashed straight in a vice and then sanded smooth.

images.charentelibre.fr/images…

pbs.twimg.com/media/CLuRkTjWgA…

There's still controversy over whether "turiasaurs" are a valid grouping at all, so I won't put much stock in that theory for now. The shape of the femur's lower end is also far more like Paluxysaurus than anything from the basal end of sauropoda, and I have made detailed diagrams on my blog showing the derived features of this animal. It's not just the upper end of the femur that's NOT like a turiasaur or other basal sauropod - the ENTIRE femur points to something much more derived. Don't blame me - I didn't create those asymmetric condyles.

As for the teeth, there are different types of sauropod teeth from Angeac. The ones I posted are generally brachiosaur-like or chubutisaur-like. There may be other teeth that resemble those of Turiasaurus, however that does not mean every sauropod tooth at Angeac is from the same species. Most of the ones I posted do not resemble basal eusauropod teeth, "identical" is a wrong assessment... they lack the ridges of things like Cardiodon and Vulcanodon, and are very different from the teeth of Shunosaurus as well.

It may be that the team specializes in turiasaurs and similar species, I don't know how familiar they are with titanosauriforms or how many they have looked at, however the Turiasaurus people themselves have some bizarre theories about it, suck as Royo-Torres, Cobos & Alcala claiming "the head of Turiasaurus was rather small proportionally because a larger head might have caused Turiasaurus to break its neck." ("El Turiasaurus". El Mundo. 2012.) All those lightweight, paper-thin skull bones and big hollow fenestrae (the cast doesn't do them justice), break its neck? They should look at a Shunosaurus or Omeisaurus skull, which have less hollow space, and the skinny necks those sit on :XD: it might give them a heart attack! These are some really bizarre theories and honestly make me question things about the state of paleontology in the EU, outside Germany anyway. That's not conspiracy, it's just flat out unscientific.
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(1 Reply)
:iconpaleosir:
paleosir Featured By Owner May 17, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
That's very interesting......
Reply
:iconforbiddenparadise64:
ForbiddenParadise64 Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2017
They seem to have dropped the Turiasaurid claim once I showed them your arguments lol. 

Any idea what Angloposeidon is? 
Reply
:iconpaleo-king:
Paleo-King Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2017  Professional Traditional Artist
"They seem to have dropped the Turiasaurid claim once I showed them your arguments lol. "

That's what I do.

"Any idea what Angloposeidon is? "


Probably also a chubutisaur... seeing how similar it is to Paluxysaurus.
Reply
:iconpaleo-king:
Paleo-King Featured By Owner Edited Apr 16, 2017  Professional Traditional Artist
The truth is this:

A) The French Monster don't look similar to Turiasaurus at all. Far closer to Chubutisaurus and Paluxysaurus. I did a side-by-side image comparison of the femurs, French Monster is almost identical to Paluxysaurus in femur shape. The femur looks nothing like Turiasaurus - Turiasaurus' femur is much shorter relative to width (by about 50%!) and hardly has any lateral bulge or canting of the head. The lateral bulge and the canting of the femur head inward from it, is HUGE in the French Monster and most somphospondyli. This is NOT a Turiasaurid trait. The French Monster also has a far greater difference in the lengths of the tibial and fibular condyles, as well as a far more developed lateral condyle - these are NOT Turiasaurid traits, they are titanosauriform traits. I could go on and on, but everything I have seen of the photos screams titanosauriform, and most likely chubutisaurid. Turiasaurus has a very plain straight-shafted primitive eusauropod femur, it has none of the advanced features of "Frenchie" and the proportions of all the features it does have are on the complete opposite end of the spectrum.

(In fact, with all the titanosauriforms nowadays being confused with Turiasaurus or clustering with it in weird alternate polytomies in European papers, I would venture that either several EU authors are getting sloppy with their character codings such that "everything is now a turiasaurid", OR Turiasaurus may actually be a chimera of two very different species.) Turiasaurus has nothing substantial in common with the French Monster other than both are known from some black bones and some beige bones. That's it. Of course there is a lot of academic pride in Turiasauridae for some people, because it's the first all-European dinosaur clade (so far anyway). But this is science not politics. Take a deep breath. It's okay to have a giant chubutisaur in France. In any case it's good for France to have this giant prepared and displayed, whatever family it's in. In fact the chubutisaur is a much better dinosaur than the turiasaurs in every way. Just because the founding member isn't from Europe... does it really need to matter so much?

Now admittedly some of the sculpted replicas of the French Monster femur are very incorrect, they leave out the lateral bulge and the canting and change the angle of the femur head, which may have lead to some confusion (though the sculpt is still much more elongated than a turiasaurid femur). Not sure why they did this, as there are no lateral breaks at the location of the bulge, there's a break above it, but when fitted together the pieces fit neatly and still show a substantial amount of medial canting and a big bulge. This is not reflected in some standing sculpts of the bone. However the plaque-mount cast I showed in my blog clearly exposes the canting and reproduces the bone's true shape. This is why it's important to go by actual fossils and not a hastily pre-fabbed display sculpture.

B) The discord links are broken. What humerus are they even talking about for the French Monster?
Reply
:iconforbiddenparadise64:
You're right. The humerus have the same problem. cdn.discordapp.com/attachments… This is Turiasaurus' and this:  cdn.discordapp.com/attachments… is the French Monster's.

The humerus is broken and the picture seems to have them pushing the two ends together to make it look like Turiasaurus. Not only is there no evidence it was that short (and the lines of the cracks suggest otherwise), but the ends are much more rounded than in Turiasaurus too. 

Also, while teeing is out of the question, a huge fibula has appeared too. cdn.discordapp.com/attachments… This is a pic of it compared to the end of the 1.4m femur. cdn.discordapp.com/attachments… And the rest of the femur for comparison. So it looks signicantly bigger as well as proportionally more robust. 

And according to the museum website, the smaller femur is 2.23m, not 2.2m lol. I'm sure that changes things in a minor way. (Edit: instead of 28.5m and 56.5 tonnes scaled isometrically from Paluxysaurus, it's now 28.9m and 58.8 tonnes). Also, if the fibula is any indicator, then the giant femur may actually end up at 2.67m rather than 2.6m (assuming the two scale equally). This results in a Paluxysaurus-based size of 34.6m and 101.16 tonnes. Of course, the giant fibula is also proportionally more robust than the smaller one, so the weight estimate should be bumped even higher. That and as we discussed earlier, neck and tail allometrics would mean a longer tail too. 

The cervival also looks similar to Sauroposeidon, too. So there's that. 
Reply
:iconpaleo-king:
Paleo-King Featured By Owner Apr 17, 2017  Professional Traditional Artist
The humerus: It is not only broken and missing most of the middle section, but their compressed display is FAR too short (also it appears that the top part is in posterior view but the bottom part may be in anterior view?). This humerus has two issues that make it easy to misinterpret: its fragmentary state, and really bad erosion. The irony is that chubutisaur humeri are NOT normally rounded at the top, they are actually more angular than in Turiasaurus... but again, this one is very badly eroded, as are most of the other bones in this larger "beige" specimen, so the humerus shape in this case isn't a reliable indicator of the actual shape of a complete humerus. However its lower end has pretty wide-gauge condyles, which is 100% consistent with what you get in Paluxysaurus and Chubutisaurus.

The fibula: it's just the upper fragment but definitely huge. I'm seeing a pattern here. The black bones all seem to be from the smaller specimen and the beige bones all seem to be from the larger specimen. This is good because we can cross-scale the parts as more are prepared and photographed.

The femurs: 2.23m is hardly any different from 2.2m. It's a 30mm difference, or 3cm. Yes it may seem significant in real life, but I've seen bones with more than 3cm eroded off the ends that still show the rough shape of the condyles, and in a skeletal image of something so big, 3cm is almost invisible. Affecting the tonnage significantly is possible but again a bit of a stretch for just 3cm.

The cervical and the couple of dorsals in the photos do indeed look like Sauroposeidon, I'm comparing them to the juvenile Cloverly Formation specimens... so similar it's not even funny. Francoposeidon here we come....
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(1 Reply)
:iconmajestic-colossus:
Majestic-Colossus Featured By Owner Apr 12, 2017
Was Mamenchisaurus Sinocanadorum the tallest organism ever? If not, what dinosaur was?
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